As GehVorbei pointed out in an earlier thread, some of the MP3s being posted by Keith and others are readily available for pennies from the iTunes Music Store or Wal-Mart's online music store.
I don't have a problem with sharing rare, out-of-print recordings with fellow fans, but please try not to post links to MP3s available through legitimate retailers. If you want to share or swap music files in private, that's your right, but please try respect the rights of the artists involved.
And thanks again to Keith for digitizing and sharing so many great old recordings that are out of print or otherwise difficult to obtain.
Reminder: Please post only rare or out-of-print recordings
Moderator: mark
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KeithBurke
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:22 pm
I'm Very Sorry
Mark-
Not being a subscriber to any of the online download programs or formats you mentioned I have no idea which selections might violate one’s sensibilities. Since this seems to be a selective process (i.e. How Does A Man-good link…Window Wishing-bad link) which far exceeds my realm of knowledge it is probably for the best I cease listing altogether .
My sincere apologies to both you and GehVorei.
Keith
Not being a subscriber to any of the online download programs or formats you mentioned I have no idea which selections might violate one’s sensibilities. Since this seems to be a selective process (i.e. How Does A Man-good link…Window Wishing-bad link) which far exceeds my realm of knowledge it is probably for the best I cease listing altogether .
My sincere apologies to both you and GehVorei.
Keith
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Doug in Ann Arbor
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 6:08 am
- Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
about links to rare burt songs
Hello Mark and Keith,
This is my first post after "lurking" on this forum for over 12 years (maybe more).
I am 61 years old. I have enjoyed listening and collecting all of Burt's recorded music since I figured out he was the origin of my favorite songs in the late 50's. Over the years I tried to purchase everything that was available for retail sale in Michigan. I would buy a whole LP to get one BB song (Promise Her Anything). I went to see "Promises, Promises" on Broadway in 2 different years. I have real purchased copies of 45s, LPs, tapes and CDs with a lot of Burt's music (but not as much as Keith).
The internet revealed to me there are 100's of Burt songs (or versions) I never knew existed when they were available for sale in "real time". And the Promises Demos are completely unknown to me.
My point is, it is sad to think a true Burt Bacharach fan may live a whole life and never get to hear some of Burt's "Hidden Gems". I think that Keith has opened a narrow window of opportunity for me to hear these rare tracks. (especially with the 10-day expiration dates)
Maybe Mark can consider a process for registed members to submit off-line messages with suggested track titles for his "pre-approval" before linking in a message this forum?
This forum is the only place I have found in the world to read meesages from people who share my love for the music of Burt Bacharach. Thank You to Mark and everyone for all these years of interesting conversation and information.
from Doug in Ann Arbor
This is my first post after "lurking" on this forum for over 12 years (maybe more).
I am 61 years old. I have enjoyed listening and collecting all of Burt's recorded music since I figured out he was the origin of my favorite songs in the late 50's. Over the years I tried to purchase everything that was available for retail sale in Michigan. I would buy a whole LP to get one BB song (Promise Her Anything). I went to see "Promises, Promises" on Broadway in 2 different years. I have real purchased copies of 45s, LPs, tapes and CDs with a lot of Burt's music (but not as much as Keith).
The internet revealed to me there are 100's of Burt songs (or versions) I never knew existed when they were available for sale in "real time". And the Promises Demos are completely unknown to me.
My point is, it is sad to think a true Burt Bacharach fan may live a whole life and never get to hear some of Burt's "Hidden Gems". I think that Keith has opened a narrow window of opportunity for me to hear these rare tracks. (especially with the 10-day expiration dates)
Maybe Mark can consider a process for registed members to submit off-line messages with suggested track titles for his "pre-approval" before linking in a message this forum?
This forum is the only place I have found in the world to read meesages from people who share my love for the music of Burt Bacharach. Thank You to Mark and everyone for all these years of interesting conversation and information.
from Doug in Ann Arbor
As a fellow Bacharach fan of many years, it is with sadness that I note that Keith seems to have left us. He was instrumental in providing us with genuine "rarities", and I, for one, was more than grateful for them. After all, isn't this what its all about - sharing things between collectors.
Sadly,
Alistair
Sadly,
Alistair
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mark
- Site Admin
- Posts: 303
- Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:31 pm
- Location: New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
- Contact:
Re: I'm Very Sorry
No apologies necessary, Keith, and I really wish you'd reconsider. It wasn't my intention to rain on the parade, but file sharing is a sensitive issue. I'm sure there are some in the recording industry who'd object to sharing even out-of-print material.KeithBurke wrote:Mark-
Not being a subscriber to any of the online download programs or formats you mentioned I have no idea which selections might violate one’s sensibilities. Since this seems to be a selective process (i.e. How Does A Man-good link…Window Wishing-bad link) which far exceeds my realm of knowledge it is probably for the best I cease listing altogether .
My sincere apologies to both you and GehVorei.
Keith
As for being a seletive process, it's really not that difficult at all. When you click on the link to Wal-Mart's online music store, there's a simple search form by artist, song title or album. Enter the name of a song and if it appears, you know that recording is available for legitimate purchase. "Window Wishing," for example, shows up as available for purchase (for 88 cents, by the way); "How Does A Man Become A Puppet" does not.
"Where There's a Heartache (There Must Be A Heart)," by the way, shows up in a version by Astrud Gilberto featuring Stanley Turrentine that I hadn't heard. The versions by the Sandpipers (and Pat Boone) are not currently available for purchase, so I wouldn't have any problem with their being posted.
Of course Blair might have a problem with it, but that's another story...
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KeithBurke
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:22 pm
Mark-
I appreciate you taking the time to address the debate regarding the touchy topic of file sharing. My intension in sharing these files was solely to provide the “hard core†fans an opportunity to enjoy some of the lesser known recordings among themselves. It was with pleasure and in the spirit of sharing I offered these links. It was never my intension to deprive any artist (Miss Warwick) or any retail juggernaut (Wal-Mart) any profits. I would be curious how much of the .88 cents Miss Warwick actually sees. Based on Wal-Mart’s track record for fair business practice, I have serious doubts. Since, I for one have no intension of supporting Wal-Mart in any endeavor they pursue it won’t be anytime soon that I feel compelled to consult their database .
At this risk of turning this into another political debate and after the debacle of last years At This Time here on the forum I will respectfully refrain from posting anymore links here.
Any fans who wish to trade or have specific request for MP3 files can reach me directly at keithinoc@aol.com.
Best regards,
Keith Burke
I appreciate you taking the time to address the debate regarding the touchy topic of file sharing. My intension in sharing these files was solely to provide the “hard core†fans an opportunity to enjoy some of the lesser known recordings among themselves. It was with pleasure and in the spirit of sharing I offered these links. It was never my intension to deprive any artist (Miss Warwick) or any retail juggernaut (Wal-Mart) any profits. I would be curious how much of the .88 cents Miss Warwick actually sees. Based on Wal-Mart’s track record for fair business practice, I have serious doubts. Since, I for one have no intension of supporting Wal-Mart in any endeavor they pursue it won’t be anytime soon that I feel compelled to consult their database .
At this risk of turning this into another political debate and after the debacle of last years At This Time here on the forum I will respectfully refrain from posting anymore links here.
Any fans who wish to trade or have specific request for MP3 files can reach me directly at keithinoc@aol.com.
Best regards,
Keith Burke
Adding my thanks
Thanks, Keith, for the opportunity to listen (and to keep listening) to some rare and gorgeous Bacharach recordings.
Also, I was able to send some links to friends who are now much more likely to seek and buy Bacharach's works.
Also, I was able to send some links to friends who are now much more likely to seek and buy Bacharach's works.
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mark
- Site Admin
- Posts: 303
- Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:31 pm
- Location: New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
- Contact:
Just to clarify one thing, I'm not endorsing Wal-Mart or its dubious business practices. Rather, Wal-Mart's online story is simply the easist way to check the availability of a song. If a song is available for purchase via Wal-Mart's online store, that means you can likely purchase it from any music retailer, including your local independent CD shop. If it's not available from Wal-Mart, it may in fact still be in print, but as far as I'm concerned that satisties the requirement of due diligence, so to speak.
I, too, appreciated Keith's posts and I have no problem at all with fans using the board to share difficult-to-obtain recordings (I've gotten many recordings from posters to this board that I wouldn't have been able to obtain otherwise), but I owe it to the artists to try to discourage the sharing of recordings that are available to be purchased. A lot of people search message boards and websites for MP3s and once they're located, downloaded and added to a file sharing network like Gnutella, it's impossible to remove them.
I'm of mixed emotions about file sharing networks. On the one hand, I think they're a reaction to the exorbitant prices of new CDs and some users (like me, on occasion) download songs to preview them and decide whether or not to invest in the CD. On the other hand, for a new generation, file sharing networks represent a way to bypass the industry altogether and obtain music for free, which unfairly impacts not just record industry weasels but the artists as well.
To get things rolling again, I'll try to post a few of my rare MP3s and I'd encourage everyone to do the same, but please do so in a thoughtful way. If you want to trade or share recordings that are in print, contact other members in private and work out the details on your own. In that way, file sharing returns to the pre-Internet model of making mixed tapes for friends, which I don't think anyone could have a problem with.
I, too, appreciated Keith's posts and I have no problem at all with fans using the board to share difficult-to-obtain recordings (I've gotten many recordings from posters to this board that I wouldn't have been able to obtain otherwise), but I owe it to the artists to try to discourage the sharing of recordings that are available to be purchased. A lot of people search message boards and websites for MP3s and once they're located, downloaded and added to a file sharing network like Gnutella, it's impossible to remove them.
I'm of mixed emotions about file sharing networks. On the one hand, I think they're a reaction to the exorbitant prices of new CDs and some users (like me, on occasion) download songs to preview them and decide whether or not to invest in the CD. On the other hand, for a new generation, file sharing networks represent a way to bypass the industry altogether and obtain music for free, which unfairly impacts not just record industry weasels but the artists as well.
To get things rolling again, I'll try to post a few of my rare MP3s and I'd encourage everyone to do the same, but please do so in a thoughtful way. If you want to trade or share recordings that are in print, contact other members in private and work out the details on your own. In that way, file sharing returns to the pre-Internet model of making mixed tapes for friends, which I don't think anyone could have a problem with.
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Blair N. Cummings
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:14 pm
file-sharing
My take on this whole matter rests on two considerations on which I`m not wholly clear.
First, the legality of it. If it`s flat-out illegal to publically trade copyrighted material, I can understand not wanting to be exposed to the possiblity of facing a ludicrously huge fine (never mind a prison sentence) for the sake of a lousy song or album. Of course, I understand the likelihood that any given instance will result in serious prosecution is about as great as the Feds bursting into your apartment while you`re copying a cd for a friend; but on a public forum such as this I can understand the wariness.
Second, the fairness or "moral" issue. I don`t know how royalties are distributed for downloads. In my day, royalties incurred from airplay and record sales went primarily, if not exclusively, to the song`s composer(s).
Singers, musicians, band members et al, were paid for the recording sessions and otherwise made their money from concert appearances.
Assuming that something like that state of affairs still pertains, it seems to me that ("morally" speaking) sharing a track or album by an already generously rewarded band or individual presents no problem. No one fears for the financial solvency of Burt Bacharach or the Rolling Stones.
On the other hand, a fledgling band or "cult artist" may command a tad more consideration---buy the damned album, cheapskate!
I`m sure someone (can I already hear Ron logging on)? will straighten me out if I`m way off on this...or if they think I`m just full of %#$@!
First, the legality of it. If it`s flat-out illegal to publically trade copyrighted material, I can understand not wanting to be exposed to the possiblity of facing a ludicrously huge fine (never mind a prison sentence) for the sake of a lousy song or album. Of course, I understand the likelihood that any given instance will result in serious prosecution is about as great as the Feds bursting into your apartment while you`re copying a cd for a friend; but on a public forum such as this I can understand the wariness.
Second, the fairness or "moral" issue. I don`t know how royalties are distributed for downloads. In my day, royalties incurred from airplay and record sales went primarily, if not exclusively, to the song`s composer(s).
Singers, musicians, band members et al, were paid for the recording sessions and otherwise made their money from concert appearances.
Assuming that something like that state of affairs still pertains, it seems to me that ("morally" speaking) sharing a track or album by an already generously rewarded band or individual presents no problem. No one fears for the financial solvency of Burt Bacharach or the Rolling Stones.
On the other hand, a fledgling band or "cult artist" may command a tad more consideration---buy the damned album, cheapskate!
I`m sure someone (can I already hear Ron logging on)? will straighten me out if I`m way off on this...or if they think I`m just full of %#$@!
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GehVorbei
As far as the legality is concerned, here in Germany the police yesterday raided the homes of users of the eDonkey internet-site under the allegation of filesharing.
A crackdown on 3,500 file-sharers is the largest single action against the illegal distribution of music online. BBC news reports those charged by German police could face five years in prison.
Sorry, I´m not comparing these people to us. We are sharing a few out of print tracks taken from old vinyl. Still there are some major legal issues and it´s important to draw a line as Mark did.
Beyond that I´m just excited how much of the music I love is now available again at i-tunes and on cd. And the demand for these will determine how much more what´s in the vaults will come out and to an extend if there´s a demand for new products from Burt and Dionne. That´s my point!
I doubt that after selling her share of her catalogue to Warner in the early 90s (together with Burt and Hal) Dionne sees much if anything from all the recent Warner (Rhino) rereleases and the commercial download services, but the demand for these and her increased visibility might have played a role in her securing a major record deal again. She´s on American Idol, she´s on Oprah´s ABC special, she has a major release coming out in August and her label is picking up the bill for a huge concert at Radio City Music Hall that will coincide with the album release and feature most of her duet partners. Let´s continue to support both Burt and Dionne in the marketplace. I want them around and in demand for much, much longer.
A crackdown on 3,500 file-sharers is the largest single action against the illegal distribution of music online. BBC news reports those charged by German police could face five years in prison.
Sorry, I´m not comparing these people to us. We are sharing a few out of print tracks taken from old vinyl. Still there are some major legal issues and it´s important to draw a line as Mark did.
Beyond that I´m just excited how much of the music I love is now available again at i-tunes and on cd. And the demand for these will determine how much more what´s in the vaults will come out and to an extend if there´s a demand for new products from Burt and Dionne. That´s my point!
I doubt that after selling her share of her catalogue to Warner in the early 90s (together with Burt and Hal) Dionne sees much if anything from all the recent Warner (Rhino) rereleases and the commercial download services, but the demand for these and her increased visibility might have played a role in her securing a major record deal again. She´s on American Idol, she´s on Oprah´s ABC special, she has a major release coming out in August and her label is picking up the bill for a huge concert at Radio City Music Hall that will coincide with the album release and feature most of her duet partners. Let´s continue to support both Burt and Dionne in the marketplace. I want them around and in demand for much, much longer.
One other thing to consider just to throw something else in the mix.
I am gong to use a example but not Burts music ( whom I am a big fan of - or I wouldn't be looking at this board)
I remember when Elton John's "Yellow Brick Road" came out. I loved that album. His best, in my opinion. I bought the album. I played it to death on my turntable until it just didn't sound very good anymore (I was yound and didn't have the best turntable and didn't take the best care of it).
When 8 tracks came out I of course bought "Yellow Brick Road". I played it and played it on my home system and in my car. Well, it got overplayed because it started to sound bad. Luckily cassettes came out and I of course bought it again. After a while it too did not sound very good. Well, CDs came out and of course I bought it again. It was in my car with tons of other CDs when my car was broken into and it was stolen.
At about that time my daughter who was in college told me about napster. I first thought it wasn't something she should be into - something about it didn't sound right.
Then I found I could go get every track of that album in digital quality and it was mine to make CDs with. And if something happened to the CD I would just make another.
You might guess where my point is going. How many time do I have to give Elton John my money? I have bought this album countless times and the last time I downloaded the tracks I didn't pay but you better believe I have paid for that album. Over and over.
Just a thought. I feel no guilt downloading songs I have already paid for. Sometime the albums are old and scratched and I don't feel bad getting a better sounding track for free.
I am a boomer and I am almost embarassed to say how much I have paid for music my whole life. I love music so it's safe to say I could probably finance a small country with what I have dished out over the years
I am gong to use a example but not Burts music ( whom I am a big fan of - or I wouldn't be looking at this board)
I remember when Elton John's "Yellow Brick Road" came out. I loved that album. His best, in my opinion. I bought the album. I played it to death on my turntable until it just didn't sound very good anymore (I was yound and didn't have the best turntable and didn't take the best care of it).
When 8 tracks came out I of course bought "Yellow Brick Road". I played it and played it on my home system and in my car. Well, it got overplayed because it started to sound bad. Luckily cassettes came out and I of course bought it again. After a while it too did not sound very good. Well, CDs came out and of course I bought it again. It was in my car with tons of other CDs when my car was broken into and it was stolen.
At about that time my daughter who was in college told me about napster. I first thought it wasn't something she should be into - something about it didn't sound right.
Then I found I could go get every track of that album in digital quality and it was mine to make CDs with. And if something happened to the CD I would just make another.
You might guess where my point is going. How many time do I have to give Elton John my money? I have bought this album countless times and the last time I downloaded the tracks I didn't pay but you better believe I have paid for that album. Over and over.
Just a thought. I feel no guilt downloading songs I have already paid for. Sometime the albums are old and scratched and I don't feel bad getting a better sounding track for free.
I am a boomer and I am almost embarassed to say how much I have paid for music my whole life. I love music so it's safe to say I could probably finance a small country with what I have dished out over the years
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KeithBurke
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:22 pm
Friendly Doors
Jay-
Your point was well made and well taken. I doubt there are many of us here on the forum who haven’t spent a small fortune, over the years, in support of Mr. Bacharach and Ms. Warwick’s careers. It was kind of shocking to be getting the negative reaction to posting links here, especially considering the two people complaining the most were also two who “dipped into the pot†the most. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth! Oy Vey!
Anyway, the upshot is… the sharing has continued. Many thanks to all of you who made contact and kept the friendly doors opened wide.
Keith
Your point was well made and well taken. I doubt there are many of us here on the forum who haven’t spent a small fortune, over the years, in support of Mr. Bacharach and Ms. Warwick’s careers. It was kind of shocking to be getting the negative reaction to posting links here, especially considering the two people complaining the most were also two who “dipped into the pot†the most. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth! Oy Vey!
Anyway, the upshot is… the sharing has continued. Many thanks to all of you who made contact and kept the friendly doors opened wide.
Keith
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ron hertel
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:08 pm
Keith Burke & Jay:
You've raised some interesting points here! Add this to the mix: How many times have we paid for compilation CD's that contain 90% material we have previously acquired on other compilation CD's. I can't begin to tell you how many copies of certain BB/HD/DW releases I have purchased in order to acquire one or two songs that had not been previously remastered and released on CD. How many "Best Of", "Greatest Hits", "Very Best Of" and "Definitive Collections" are we expected to purchase? Ironically - it's the most dedicated and supportive fans who end up spending the most while the casual listener is satisfied with that single outlay of $7.99 for the greatest hits package. I have no problem with artists and composers being rightfully compensated - as they should be - for what they do; however, I do take issue with the record company tactics of discriminating against the biggest supporters of their artist's efforts. We all enjoy the new cover art and liner notes which lure us in - but how many copies of "That's What Friends Are For" does one need to pay for. Thankfully we can now download songs individually if we're willing to pass on the packaging. Also - my garage still holds multiple copies of my favorite worn out old vinyl LP's which for some inexplicable reason I cannot part with. I have purchased at least 50 copies of "Alfie" - make that 75!
You've raised some interesting points here! Add this to the mix: How many times have we paid for compilation CD's that contain 90% material we have previously acquired on other compilation CD's. I can't begin to tell you how many copies of certain BB/HD/DW releases I have purchased in order to acquire one or two songs that had not been previously remastered and released on CD. How many "Best Of", "Greatest Hits", "Very Best Of" and "Definitive Collections" are we expected to purchase? Ironically - it's the most dedicated and supportive fans who end up spending the most while the casual listener is satisfied with that single outlay of $7.99 for the greatest hits package. I have no problem with artists and composers being rightfully compensated - as they should be - for what they do; however, I do take issue with the record company tactics of discriminating against the biggest supporters of their artist's efforts. We all enjoy the new cover art and liner notes which lure us in - but how many copies of "That's What Friends Are For" does one need to pay for. Thankfully we can now download songs individually if we're willing to pass on the packaging. Also - my garage still holds multiple copies of my favorite worn out old vinyl LP's which for some inexplicable reason I cannot part with. I have purchased at least 50 copies of "Alfie" - make that 75!