Phil Ramone Discusses Working with Bacharach/Warwick

[BachtoBacharach]

From JazzWax Blog; Marc Myers blogs daily on jazz legends and legendary jazz recordings
Interview: Phil Ramone (Part 4) November 11, 2010

In 1967, Phil Ramone began engineering a string of Dionne Warwick's hits by Burt Bacharach and Hal David. If Bacharach and David were America's equivalent of Lennon and McCartney (perhaps even bigger by some accounts), then Phil was akin to George Martin. But unlike the Beatles, there was no overdubbing. Instead, everything was recorded at once, and Phil had to deal with immediacy and nuance. Bacharach's music was complex, requiring careful miking to capture not only the dramatic string and horn parts but also the powerful vocal and intimate rhythm section. [Illustration by Rob Kelly]
In Part 4 of my five-part interview with Phil, the prolific jazz, rock and pop producer talks about engineering Dionne Warwick sessions:
JazzWax: You engineered eight of Dionne Warwick's hits in the ‘60s. Was Burt Bacharach in the studio for them?
Phil Ramone: Absolutely. For every bit of it. Despite what you read, Burt wasn’t tough on Dionne. There was mutual respect between Burt, Dionne and Hal. They had a special thing, and all wanted the same result—a hit.

JW: How did you record her?
PR: We knew that unless Dionne had a terrible bad throat, we weren’t going to overdub her. Overdubbing was done with a lot of singers—having them sing on top of their own voices to fill it out. Dionne’s voice was so strong and so full of character that overdubbing wasn’t necessary.

JW: How did you and Burt work together?
PR: Eventually, I became Burt’s hearing frame in the control room. When he trusted me, he’d stop coming in from the studio area to discuss things. Instead, he’d just turn around after a take, and I would either give a thumbs up or indicate we needed another one.

JW: So Bacharach would leave you pretty much alone?
PR: [Laughs] No. There would be times when I’d give him a thumbs up and he’d want another take anyway. He’d also sit through everything during the editing process. I think I learned more about musicianship with Burt than with anyone else.

JW: Were there jazz musicians on the Warwick sessions?
PR: Oh sure. You would always see one of the Royal brothers—Ernie or Marshall pretty regularly. Michael and Randy Brecker, too.

JW: How did you capture the big sound on those recordings?
PR: First, I made sure Burt was always in the room playing piano and conducting. I always felt he belonged there—it was his music and vision. The dates went better when he was in the studio. Second, everyone recorded at once in one room. There was no laying down the instrumental tracks first and then having Dionne come in later for the vocals. Recording live like that created energy that came through the record.

JW: Where did you place Warwick in the studio?
PR: In a vocal booth. The backup vocal group was in the next booth. So I had a lot of control over their sound in the studio.

JW: Do You Know the Way to San Jose had a lot going on.
PR: What do you mean?

JW: The song opens with a bass, bass drum, snare and what sounds like a gourd. Then Warwick comes in, backed by an organ. Strings emerge faintly about 30 seconds into the track. Horns follow. Then on the break, the arrangement explodes with the entire orchestra. On the other end, the rhythm section returns. That’s a lot to account for in the control room.
PR: [Laughs] Burt always liked to add theatrical and dramatic components to songs. Within that context there was plenty of freedom to experiment with the studio sound.

JW: How so?
PR: When his arrangement exploded. it was often huge, and we found novel ways to capture it. But we also had to prepare for when the tight rhythm section returned. We had to be able to catch that sensitively, too.

JW: How did you deal with the sudden acoustic bursts?
PR: When I saw that Burt's score called for those dramatic explosions, I’d go out into the studio before we recorded to hear how they played in the room. I wanted to hear how much sound we could get away with on tape.

JW: You didn’t have much wiggle room.
PR: That’s right, because we recorded everything live in the same room at once. You had to plan ahead and mike the room accordingly.

JW: On San Jose, how did the snare drum get that crisp, sparky sound?
PR: There wasn’t time that day for the drummer to replace his snare with a new head. After a head is worn down, it loses its brightness. Changing it would have been a time-consuming process and would have slowed down the session. So we just had the guy turn the head over to get that crisp, shuffling train beat with brushes in the beginning.

JW: Were your Warwick-Bacharach dates recorded at A&R Recording?
PR: Yeah. We started in the original space. But then in 1969 A&R moved to larger space at 799 Seventh Ave. on 52d St. The new studio had been part of Columbia Records. The label was giving it up. The smaller original room on 48th St. was 40 by 35 feet with 12-foot ceilings. It wasn’t what you’d call an ideal studio, but the sound was great. The big one gave us more room.

JW: What did you do to make those Warwick sessions sound so great?
PR: I never really felt that I created a “sound” that was distinctly mine. I didn’t want to. My goal always was to determine how arrangements should be interpreted and captured as vividly as possible. That’s where drama comes in. If you have a great conductor leading the room, you get great dynamics out of the musicians. When Dionne’s voice needed to soar, we could handle that. But to me, the intimate moments on those songs with just the rhythm section made them truly special.

JW: But there is a distinct sound on them.
PR: How do you mean?

JW: For instance, the drums always sounded clear but hushed. The beat is there, but the drums never came across as oppressive or overwhelming.
PR: I’ll tell you what I did differently there. I put the drums on a two-foot riser and stuffed fiberglass under the riser. The drums were alive above the two-foot area, but you didn’t get bottom-heavy reverberation. When the musicians on the sessions played in the room, you could see and feel the drums everywhere but they never drowned you out.

JW: Was Bacharach’s music tricky?
PR: Very. Songs often were in unusual time signatures to begin with and could change multiple times during a song. The lyrics could be tricky, too. Hal [David] wrote to match Burt’s quirky musical style and his lyrics resolved in odd places where another phrase would end or begin.

JW: What was Hal David’s role in the booth?
PR: To make sure we didn't ignore something or didn’t step on a lyric or, in other cases, to make sure we did. There were times when they wanted Dionne to step on a phrase or scream over it. A lot went on musically during these dates, and much was indistinguishable to the listener's ear, other than the music and Dionne sounding very exciting.

JW: So David was the lyric cop.
PR: [Laughs] Yeah, he had to be. He’s the guy who invented the way to put words in their place on those songs. It’s an amazing skill up close. Whether it’s Paul Simon, Billy Joel or any great lyric writer—where they decide to place the phrasing of their words so the singer is a participant in the creation and also unveils the song’s story is a real art.

JW: Was it easy to read Bacharach’s wishes through the control room glass?
PR: Yes, very much so. I knew exactly what he wanted just by how he’d look at me. A look of dissatisfaction is pretty easy. Or perhaps he’d look quizzical, like, “Is that tempo working?” He’s a highly expressive person.

JW: Did the Warwick sessions get increasingly complex over time?
PR: From a musical perspective, perhaps. As the years went on, more and more was being put into the pot to top earlier hits. Of course, Dionne didn’t have to prove anything other than to make a hit record. In the beginning, Burt and Hal wrote for many people, from Tom Jones to Dusty Springfield. Sometimes Dionne didn’t get the first shot at one of those songs. She wasn’t happy about that. But how could she be? Eventually they straightened all of that out.

JW: Was Warwick competitive?
PR: Well sure, everyone was—and still is in this business. The Look of Love was recorded first by Dusty Springfield—this sensuous blonde woman in England. Then Dionne recorded it and gave the song a whole new, take-charge feel. It’s actually a tough song to sing. It’s very sparse with incredibly interesting space. That’s what you’re referring to in all of Burt’s work. Interesting space.

JW: What don’t most people know about Warwick?
PR: When Burt found her, she was already the quickest and most accomplished demo singer I’d ever seen. She would sing a demo once and they’d be ready to record the song that afternoon.

JW: With Bacharach and David starting in 1967, you played the role that George Martin played with the Beatles.
PR: We were making great records. Back in 1964, when the Beatles first showed their wares, from their simplistic initial album released here, Meet the Beatles, you knew they were brilliant. We admired the Beatles. Nobody had ever seen this kind of attention and chart success other than Elvis. Musically, we jumped another mile forward once that kind of challenge was there.

JW: Did Bacharach think he had to up his game with the Beatles on the charts?
PR: I would say there was more competitiveness from song to song. There was a greater consciousness about where the music and lyrics went next. Burt and Hal were fortunate to have a spokesperson for their music in Dionne.

[BachtoBacharach]

From the Blog
Vintage Soul, circa 1965 a journey into my critical view of all things R&B and Soul related

CLASSIC ALBUM: HERE WHERE THERE IS LOVE
Posted by Marcus at 3:54 PM Labels: Retrospective; Dionne Warwick

In theory, Dionne Warwick may be the 60's most influential female vocalist. Although, most people cite Diana Ross and Aretha Franklin for their approach to popular music, more fail to realize the significance of Dionne as a musical force. She never had the press office of Motown Records to boost her image or desire to become someone she was not, or portrayed a "pro-black" image in her music (i.e. Aretha Franklin) either. Of course Dionne was a house hold name, and she had many firsts, but it seems Diana and Aretha managed to take some of her thunder in terms of mass appeal, although Dionne served as a blueprint for them, by musical style and song selection. In other words, she possessed qualities they both lacked, which mattered most. Diana would try to emulate Dionne's cool, MOR facade, and Aretha would look to Dionne's songbook for several Bacharach/David records.

Dionne is often defined as sophisticated when critics or fans try to describe her music. She fused the generes of Pop and Soul like no other, while incorporating jazz, gospel, and R&B into her music as well. "She was the Queen of Easy," and critics were unable to categorized her music. She obviously had a three to four octave voice and drew from her gospel background to give soulful performances, yet she was able to keep them sweet and refined to appeal to a broad audiences. Her voice has been described as a fine wine, peculiar and able to straddle between difficult notes easily, since Dionne had to adapt quick to difficult chord and time changes often present in Burt Bacharach's music.

She was authentically Dionne, where as entertainers like Diana Ross were not. People say Diana wanted to be the "Black Streisand," but Diana really just wanted to be like another Dionne. Yes, Motown incorporated more show tunes into Diana's work than Dionne had ever done, but Dionne recorded and performed standards at the very beginning of her career. And her own hits were created to become standards not hits, which was very anti-Motown. Streisand clearly had to respect Warwick, but she did not respect Diana, and the music-goers alike had the same sentiments. Dionne was the "first" to cross-over with the help of Burt Bacharach and Hal David, and be accepted as authentic because her approach was genuine and her songs just had mass appeal to music listeners across all genres.

Dionne's 7th studio album, "Here Where There Is Love," is a masterpiece. It encompassed the essence of her very sound. By this time, she was a bona fide Pop star, a legend of her time. She had several hit records on both the Pop and R&B Charts, bound to win Grammys, had Pop music's most esteemed writing duo producing songs tailored for her voice which would become Pop music classics, and artists clamoring to cover her songs before they were even released, which began early on in her career. Back in 1964, UK singer Cilla Black covered her classic record,"Anyone Who Had A Heart," and released it in Britain before Scepter Records could put the record out overseas. Black's version of "Anyone..." reached number one.

"Here Where There Is Love" boats multiple classics, and the album plays out like a true LP, where no track is undesirable to the ears. The album beings with a pop-soul fused track entitled "Go With Love," that features a waltz sound. The second track is the definitive offering of the Burt Bacharach and Hal David's career defining anthem, "What the World Needs Now Is Love." Although, Dionne was not the first female artist to release this song, which is a rarity, she claims she recorded the demo for the record, which was supposed to be released by a male artist. According to some accounts, claim that Dionne was officially offered the song in 1965, and turned it down, in which it was subsequently offered to Jackie DeShannon. Whatever the case may be, Dionne's rendition is the best. The vocal was clearly written for her voice and singing style. According to reports, DeShannon had extreme difficulty recording the song, and Bacharach made DeShannon record the song so many times her voice began to give out.

The third track "I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself," was released as a single in 1966. Although, Dionne was not the first artist to release the song, she recorded the demo more than likely, and its certainly a gem. Her vocal performance is impeccable and uses falsetto and a strong head vocal. The title track of the album offers one of the team of Bacharach/David/Warwick's best records. The record is a waltz/bossa nova fusion and just impeccable. It's eclectic yet sophisticated, and Dionne offers a great vocal performance. The single "Trains, Boats, and Planes" is also featured on the album, its arguably one Dionne's most sophisticated records with a subtle social message.

The hit rendition of "Alfie," is featured on the record as well. Burt wanted Dionne to record the song, and arranged it with Dionne's voice in mind. However, record executives explained to Bacharach that he could not have Dionne record the record because she was not affiliated with the the film studio. So, the US version of the film featured Cher, and the UK version of the film featured Cilla Black, which Dionne became infuriated over. Burt wanted Dionne to record the song anyway. After 40 plus recordings from other artists, Dionne finally recorded the song, and it became a hit after Dionne performed it at the 1967 Academy Awards.

Other features on the album include a cool jazz soul record entitled "I Never Knew What You Were Up To," and and standards "As Long As He Needs Me," and "I Wish You Love," in addition to Dionne's take on the Bob Dylan classic "Blowin' In the Wind," which doesn't fit with the rest of the album, in sound, which is a characteristic motif with at least one or two songs on Dionne's previous two albums.

[blueonblue]

Thanks BachtoBacharach, you really should write a Dionne biography....I'd certainly buy it !
Here's the glorious title track....


"blue"

[Jerry]

WOW! This is one of the most informative posts EVER on this listserv!! Phil Ramone touches on aspects of the BB/HD/DW collaboration that I'd never heard described in quite so much specificity! I love his term 'Dramatic Explosions', when speaking about the thick instrumentations that existed on the records--in this case, 'Do You Know The Way...'.

Kudos to you, BachtoBacharach, as well on another insightful article!

Best to All Bacharachians!

Jerry

[Dionnefan]

Now THAT is the kind of stuff I wanted to see in Dionne's book! Dionne, Burt and Hal certainly have a tremendous amount of respect amongst the professional music community (and deservedly so, IMO).

[Rio]

I believe it is in Part 1 of the interview that PR says that Paul Simon used to sing demos of Burt's songs. I don't think I have ever read that anywhere before.

[BachtoBacharach]

Here is a link with several videos of an interview Marc Myers conducted with Dionne Warwick a few weeks ago in preparation for his Wall Street Journal article about her published last month.

http://www.jazzwax.com/2010/10/intervie ... rwick.html

[An Enormous BB Fan]

As I was reading the great Phil Ramone article posted above, I was thinking the same thing that Dionnefan said: I wish this stuff was in Dionne's book!! Wow! This is the book that I wish someone would write about Burt... and Hal... and Dionne.

Let me pick out some things that I just loved from the article:

1) When Phil Ramone said the following: "I think I learned more about musicianship with Burt than with anyone else." Well, of course! And that's saying a lot, too, considering all the greats that Phil worked with.

2) "Despite what you read, Burt wasn’t tough on Dionne. There was mutual respect between Burt, Dionne and Hal. They had a special thing, and all wanted the same result—a hit." This certainly makes sense. Burt had the best singer possible and he and Hal knew it. And Dionne's musicianship was on a par with Burt's, and he knew it. The three of them had a great musical marriage, that's for sure.

3) "First, I made sure Burt was always in the room playing piano and conducting. I always felt he belonged there—it was his music and vision. The dates went better when he was in the studio." I suppose it was obvious that Burt just HAD to be there. How could he not? I just know that Burt brought magic into the studio every time he set foot in one.

4) "When his arrangement exploded. it was often huge, and we found novel ways to capture it." God, yes! All of us here know exactly what Phil means. Burt's arrangements are one of the reason we're all here!

What a great article and thanks for posting it. And thanks to BachtoBacharach for his wonderful and creative essays on all thing Bacharach and pop music. Yes! BachtoBacharach should be writing the book on Burt, Hal and Dionne. If anyone can do it, it's you!

Oh, to have been a fly on the wall in the studio when Burt was recording.

Speaking of which: I wonder whatever happened to Madeline? She HAD been in the studio with them all!

In less I'm mistaken, which is certainly possible, I caught a discrepancy between something Phil Ramone said and something that Dionne said in the jazzwax article. Dionne said the following:

JW: What don’t most people know about your Bacharach-David hits?

DW: That they were all difficult, musically. Burt’s complex melodies and shifting time signatures within the song were tough. You had to be able to read music to keep up. Fortunately I could, from my piano lessons and semesters at the Hartt School of Music in Connecticut. We’d record those songs 20 or 25 times, sometimes just in parts.

When Dionne said "sometimes in parts", doesn't that contradict what Phil Ramone said; that is, Phil Ramone said that the songs were recorded live, with all the musicians there and Dionne in the booth. I took that to mean that they did not record songs in parts. So I'm confused by this contradiction.

[Rio: One other thing: I read on this very a while back that Paul Simon did, indeed, sing demo records for Burt. I know -- it does seem strange.]

[BachtoBacharach]

I do know that Paper Mache was recorded with Dionne's own overdubs in certain sections of the chorus and there were no background singers on that tune so Burt didn't always record all the parts live...Dionne was in a booth recording the vocal ovedubs to the master track on that one although it was done in the same session. Dionne had a terrible sore throat when she recorded Paper Mache and a Newsweek article about Burt confims that Dionne was drinking lemon-honey tea during the session. If you listen to Paper Mache, you can clearly tell where she was overdubbed and there is quality to her voice in this particular recording that is a little different...a little nasal, which Burt loved to exploit. I don't know of another recording in their early era where she overdubbed but there may be another. Dionne may have been referring to Burt's work with her in the 80s when he did what most others were doing then....cobbling a recording together without a live orchestra by layering separately recorded parts together...I love the early recordings because they were live and Burt was there in the studio living his vision of the tune.

Here's the tune, an underappreciated hit.

[An Enormous BB Fan]

Thanks BachtoBacharach: That might explain it. That is, Dionne was referring to a later period.

If I'm not mistaken, Burt recorded the Ronald Isley album totally live and both Burt and Ronald were thrilled to be doing it that way, too. And I like it better, too -- versus recording the parts separately and mixing it in.

And Paper Mache is underrated and probably unknown to so many people. And, in my opinion, it's one of Hal's best lyrics. "Twenty houses in a row, 80 people watch a TV show. Paper people, cardboard dreams, how unreal the whole thing seems. Can we be living in a world made of paper mache, everything is clean and so neat." Or "Read the paper, keep aware, as you're lounging in your leather chair." Fabulous stuff!

[hedi01]

I watched Smallvillesmallville dvd from the beginning. I'm really glad there will be a tenth season, but I hope there's more. Lana dramagrey's anatomy dvd ended last season (two at the end of season). I really feel thatwalt disney dvd he pulled down after a certain point, since his story became more and drama of the men she related. It seems to me has taken a new life, a fresher this season. Lois and Clark drama finally came to full swing thishouse md dvd season, something from the long-awaited season 4 All references to the comics are great. This indicates that led me to the lair of one tree hill dvdDC Comics. I saw almost all the Superhero Movie out now. And I read so many comics from Identity Crisis. I hoped that show more Justice League, and he loved the absolute right to the plot this season. Acting is great. Such a large majority of power this season, and I'm glad they're back for more.