The Burt Bacharach Discussion Forum

steveo_1965 wrote:Enorrmous,
they were improvising to a chord chart in the "improvising section"
of the arrangement.
Steveo

So, let me get this right: The sax players didn't have even a "lead sheet" in front of him with Burt's exact notes for the Sax player to play; i.e., the melody? It was just a lead sheet with the chords on top?

I'm just trying to figure out to what extent the exact notes of the sax player during the breaks are Burt's own? My feeling is that Burt DID have a lot to do with it and that he didn't just let the sax player "go", if you know what I mean.

Enormous,..-let me clarify, on "the Look of Love," the short sax solo-you bet its written out, EXACTLY by Burt- I was thinking of long pieces like the symphonic Wives and Lovers...with a sax solo by Don Menza... i am guessing, but pretty sure this is how it's done...(Forgive me Burt, if you wrote out the whole sax solo, although this is highly unlikely)
there are the melodic parts in the arrangement...of which the saxophone part reads...its all on the sax sheet.....whiuch Burt had a lot to do with..
than there comes time for the sax solo - its marked "sax solo", with the chord changes over it for 8 bars or so,- perhaps the words "in the charlie parker style"might be written on the part...then after the solo is over..the written parts(melodic harmonies) come back in and of course they are written down...
so once again, the sax player is reading the parts written by Burt,When it comes time for the solo there would be like 8 measures where the chord symbols are written out above the "hash marks(slanted lines for beats..usually 4 to a bar... ) with the instructions to "blow"- believe me, alll of those fast notes written down would be quite a chore(although it has been done in a few instances in certain bands...the sax player will be expected to remember how he played it more or less, and ape it again and again in concert...with some minor liberties..

On short solos, such as The Look of Love...there is a solo written out, and
the player is given only a minimal amount of freedom..

Okay, thanks steveo for explaining!!

Of course I'm not trying to suggest that any of the players' improv parts take ANYTHING away from Burt's compositions.

Enormous,
Well ,I can tell you that Burt reigns supreme over what the
content and style of that improv would be...if he didn't dig the solo, he would tell the player so, and suggest something else! Fortuneately, most of the great players have a sixth sense as to how to fit a solo in for a particular style.
There had been times a few times when i watched a Burt rehearsal, that a player got an idea to take the form into his own hands- do his own thing so that it wasn't matching the origianl concept - and Burt would chime in like..."Hey, Straight 8ths on the high-hat"
In this particular instance, it was the drummer doing something different on the number "Bond St." and it wasn't to Burt's liking...

Steveo

hey guys!!!..if my mind does'nt trick me the sax player is Jerry Dodgion..cheers..Gabba

Hi Gabba, thanks for the memory - I've emailed Jerry and will share his answer.

hello daddy dom.!!.i did it too so i can be surer about it..he has a nice site..isn't he??
ciao GABBA

Gabba,
I checked out Mr. Dogion's site..it's well organized and neat...
If we are talking about The Look of Love sax solo, are we talking about Dusty/Burt version(Album-soundtrack), or Dusty/Reg Guest 45 single version? The sax solo part is more or less the identical on both records
Also, I noticed that Mr. Dodgion plays the "Alto" sax,,but what i was hearing on the record was a Tenor Sax(I think?)...not saying that Jerry couldn't play the tenor, but isn't this a Tenor Sax solo?(or was the sax player playing on the lower registers of his alto...the range can overlap you know...I'm really at a loss on the range of the alto vs. the tenor...
except i know the tenor has a huskier tone...
MaYbe some sax person can respond....

Steveo

Hi Steveo,
the track I'm curious about is the Reg Guest single version. I wondered about the alto/tenor crossover thing too, and have also noticed that Burt sometimes scores in Eb, which I think is the key alto saxes come in. I thought tenors were in Bb. Perhaps we all could do with some sax education?

heheheh Daddy Dom...
You are correct in your key assumptions regarding the Eb Alto, and Bb Tenor...those are the natural keys for those instruments...whereby one doesnt have to press a bunch of keys on it to get the diatonic scale...
I think that sax solo in the Reg Guest version could more or less be played on either instrument, with the exception of that low to high run
at the end after the vocalization "I love you so." I'm wondering if the lowest notes of that gliss are on the alto....I believe the riff is on the Guest version, although I can't specifically recall it. I do recall it being on the Burt/Dusty version.
The notation is just a squiggly line on the score, I'm sure - from the lowest to the highest note...assuming that this tune is in the key of D minor, the player plays the D minor scale upward from the lowest note to the same note a couple of octaves up.(E minor scale on the Bb tenor or F minor scale on the Eb alto,(sheesh-transpositions-it's been awhile-lol)
These are the respective "sight reading keys" that these saxophones play to acheive the D minor scale that matches up on the piano..
Maybe someone will enlighten us on the range of the alto and tell us whether this specific run is possible. my guess is that it is not...I will do some checking on the web later to see what the alto's range is.

Steveo

Well, after checking on the web, the lowest note on the Alto sax is a Db below middle C,(concert pitch)
so that makes it possible(just barely)to pull off this sax solo...I think the lowest note on the sax solos was a D natural below middle C, so yes, it could be an alto sax...and yes, it could have been the gentleman Gabba mentioned...Jerry Dodgion

is gonna be a royal discussion over here if Jerry Dodgion does'nt answer...!!!i hope as i told before my memory is not tricking me ok??
thanks SteveO to be so blunt about the matter..i remember the late Grover Washington jr playing both saxes..soprano..alto and tenor..well..i'm quite anxious too i'll be right guys!!!
GABBA

Gabba,
Im sorry to be so "blunt," as you say..that was not my intention...
My intention as it became a discussion between Daddy Dom and I, was
what instrument was it played on- the alto or tenor...
If it was not Jerry, it's no big deal....
it's a marvelous job on the record, whoever did it...And you are still
a wonderful fellow...
: )

Ciao,

Steveo

please dear SteveO ..don't misunderstand the word "blunt" as a judgement..i am blunt enough when i speak about the things i love..it was my way to say i just enjoy the fact that we guys are so passionate about this argument..that's all!!!..hoping we're going to discover a little more..meanwhile i shake your hand..ciao dear..GABBA

Gabba,

Thank you my friend for clarifying! I am also passionate about learning
such things!

Ciao,

Steveo