any news about "Gift of the Magi"

[Rio]

http://www.backstage.com/bso/reviews-la ... 5332.story

[Blair N. Cummings]

Well. Maybe Burt will have time to devote to that Mike Myers project, after all. Or maybe he`ll stop accepting Steve Sater`s phone calls and get in touch with Stephanie Mills again.

[Steve Schenck]

I second Blair's hope for a speedy recording of this collection of songs. To be honest, reading the various reviews that have been published, I can understand why there isn't enthusiastic acceptance of the show as a play, as a vehicle for a story. For a show that's only 90 minutes long, without intermission, 18 songs is a huge amount. Perhaps it would have worked better as a song cycle, with some commentary between. It could easily be mounted in any number of supper clubs, dinner theaters or concert halls. I've read so many good things about the music in this project that I fear it may all be lost to our ears if it isn't recorded soon. Of course, there may be some Broadway producers scouting it out and, if they like the music and the idea, they may get some show-doctors on board to rehabilitate it. The NY Times today had a brief piece about a musicalized version of "Flashdance" that is headed to Broadway next season, after getting drubbed by critics in London this year. They listened to the critics, re-worked it, and now have people ready to put up the money to move it to NY. Here's hoping!

[steveo_1965]

Rio,
Regarding Jonathan Tunick's role.........................
As an orchestrator, one is asked to disribute some of the notes...to different instruments in a very specific way, whereas, the composer writes a sketch
indicating generalities....for example, he may write a 4 note chord, and mark wood winds over it...but which wood winds, and what goes on top? a flute, a clarinet...?
that sort of thing...yes, Burt is a wonderful orchestrator, but it is a pain in the neck
to flesh out every darn note, and with such a tremendous workload of material for an entire play...well, if one makes his sketch specific enough, then he can trust it to an orchestrator, knowing that the sound basically will remain the same...but their are small details to sort out...this is a tedious thing..and when one works with "a right hand man"
who knows the style of the composer, well its just easier, and sometimes the composer is delighted to hear these subtle changes...mostly i think its a matter of workload, and
expertise at which notes sound best, where....
I don't know if this explaination helps

Steveo

[Steve Schenck]

Steve, I think that's a terrific explanation! Very clear and to the point. I've had occasion to do some small amounts of arranging, and I thought your point about not simply dividing notes appropriately among the available instruments, but determing exactly where each note by each instrument will go - who's at the top, in the middle, at the bottom, etc. - was a very important and often missed point. I continue to be astounded by Burt's unique arranging style and instincts; he goes places, and with instrumental combinations, few have gone before!

[gabba]

bravo Steve indeed!!!!meanwhile i wish you the best holidays and a happy new year!!!gabba

[steveo_1965]

Steve and Gabba,
Thanks for your comments.I had the opportunity to look at some original sketches
from some composers, and then see the orchestrations made from those sketches..
I kind of had this question myself, but after looking long and hard at the difference between those sketches, those were some of the things I saw....
I do think Burt's orchestrations are top notch, and he does have an influence of Ravel and Debussy in there with a lot of his orchestral doublings!
Happy holidays to both of you!

Steveo

[Rio]

Thanks a lot, Steveo!

You seem to have sensed that I've been in real need of a clarification on this point (since 1996!).

I hope I am not dragging you too deep into this now, especially as my speculations sometimes seem to have to do as much with the way words were used -- hermeneutics, I guess -- as with music itself.

I definitely cannot read in between the lines of what was said in that book I linked. In my ignorance, I get the impression that Burt did not really use JT's talents and even efforts in the sense you mentioned. This is *not* to say that I can grasp what you know and feel about the issue, however expertly you tried to convey it to an ignoramus like me. I am really grateful to you for making me have a sense that I did grasp much of what you said, though.

I think what you wrote is not incompatible with what I understood JT to have said (either in person or in the quotation cited in the book), but I will push the issue further just in case...

Apparently Burt struck down every attempt by Tunick to change what he wrote. Does that mean that Burt didn't accept changes to what he, Burt, had made explicit, but might have accepted much of what JT did that Burt hadn't spelled out precisely? I think this would be consistent with what you said, but maybe not quite true to what appeared, to me, to be the spirit of the statement attributed to JT in that book.

I recall JT saying Burt gave him very detailed instructions. I wonder if in case JT did use the word "instructions", as I think he did, that he was actually saying "definitely not loose directions, but not precise in every detail either."

Do you think that it goes without saying that Burt left something for Tunick to do in Promises, Promises? If so, do you think it was necessarily something along the lines of what you said?

I had a feeling that maybe, because of his perfectionism, Burt did end up doing all the work, and that if he knew that that was going to happen, maybe he wouldn't have spent time conveying to JT what he wanted. But then, I wonder, wouldn't Burt anticipate that now, and take care of the (entire) orchestration for the new musical himself? Maybe now he made the same mistake? Or actually left room for JT to do some of the work and practice his undoubted skills?

Could it be that Burt, in PP, knowing himself to be very busy, wanted to convey it all to someone who perhaps was humble, sensible and capable enough not to take offense at his insistence in keeping his (BB's) orchestration unchanged -- and then have that one person be sure to preserve as much as possible the integrity of what was originally meant by him? If what I am saying could possibly make sense, under what circumstances would JT have to intervene, if necessary, to fulfill that duty?

These are my 2 cents worth of doubts. But I value any and all comments a lot more than that.

[steveo_1965]

Rio,
Thanks for your response...I think Burt gave JT a very strict or detailed guide to
what he wanted on Promises, but i don't think Burt ended up doing everything...
Mr. Bacharach, as good as he was, had never done a Broadway play, and there are techniques for the orchestrations in this medium(don't ask me what they are, as it's not my forte.)
What experience Mr. Tunick had in this realm before Promises, I'm not sure. Perhaps he studied a lot of those old orchestrations? Ted Royal, Arthur Lange, etc.I also think that Burt brought "his groove" to this medium and taught JT some of the "feel" of popdom!how to write in the guitar groove, the drum groove...etc.


I feel the same thing happened when Burt started writing for the movies...again, time
was a factor, as well as motion picture music orchestration technique, to which he learned from and employed one of Hollywood's best teams - Leo Shuken, and JAck Hayes...sometimes just Jack Hayes alone...
I know you may be saying an orchestration is an orchestration, and you are more or less correct, expcept for details in both mediums, tricks of the trade in which master craftsmen are employed....Such was Mr. Hayes...I have some ideas of what some of these things were, but i wont bore you with the details....just my 2 cents worth. All in all, Burt was "the man", and without his creative input, well....he composed the original
material..and provided a new twist to scoring for that medium.(some love it, some hate it) He was a maverick in the way he wrote for films...I hate to go back to that old quote by Jack Jones on one of Burt's old Lp's but it more or less stated that the arrangement was integral to the song....the "hooks" or little trumpet fills, etc, became just as important as the melody, they are the fabric of his songs!This of course is arrangement,
but it bleeds over into orchestration as to the execution of it.
Kind of long winded, I am tonight, eh?
Best,
Steveo

[An Enormous BB Fan]

Don't be silly, you're not long-winded at all.

Regarding orchestration/arranging: I can only speak as a listener and lover of great arrangements. For me, NO ONE orchestrates a pop song like Burt does. How he does it -- I have no idea. What I love about his orchestrations is the complexity of it and how so much is going on... different rhythms, his countermelodies, his harmonies, his choice of instruments, when they come in, when they go out, his background singers and their harmonies, etc. etc. I think of his very first A&M album, "Reach Out", and how I was blown away by his orchestrations. It boils down to Burt's imagination and creativity. I've never seen anything like it. There's such excitement and movement in his orchestrations. Think of what Burt did with "Freefall", as just one example.

Regarding "Promises, Promises": If Jonathan Tunick really orchestrated all those songs by himself, then, by god, you could fool me! Because I saw that original Broadway production and I would have bet my life that Burt did those orchestrations. Jonathan Tunick can not be that great. As far as I'm concerned, if JT did orchestrate the show, then Burt had to have told him what instruments to use and where to use them. If anything, they simply had to work in tandem with Burt saying "I want this and I want that". If JT did, in fact, orchestrate it himself, then he channelled Burt very very well. And JT must have listened to all of Burt's songs over and over again and figured out what Burt did, but the original "Promises, Promises" sounded, to me, exactly as if Burt had done it himself.

Regarding "Gift of the Magi": As things stand now, with those reviews, I don't see the show coming to Broadway.

Neil Simon knew how to write plays. He was genius, for heaven's sakes. He had one hit show after another on Broadway. One of his shows was "Promises, Promises". He was the Shakespeare of his time. Burt, Hal and Neil simply should have written another Broadway musical, for heaven's sakes. After a year or so, Burt should have gotten over the bad experience he says he had, and simply scored another musical with Neil and Hal. "Promises, Promises" was a huge hit. Think if Richard Rodgers had quit after his first show. My god! Burt and Hal could have been the next Rodgers and Hammerstein. Oh well, that just wasn't meant to be, I guess. Que sera sera.

From what I'm reading about "Gift of the Magi", it just doesn't seem big enough to be a Broadway hit. I hope I'm wrong.

[Steve Schenck]

I read - in a magazine article or book, I'm not sure which - that Burt said he sketched out the basic arrangement plan for Promises, Promises, and then handed it off to JT, who would listen to what Burt was saying and perhaps showing him, at the piano. Then, he would work out arrangements, but run them by Burt again. And Burt would either say, "OK" or "Not bad, but change this, add that, eliminate horns here," etc. I think that, given the time constraints of his overall career and the need for a show to unfold while on the road, he simply couldn't do all the arranging. But he didn't hand it over entirely to Jonathan Tunick. He seems very protective of his work, especially when it's a matter of its first and original presentation to the listening public.

[Rio]

For very unfortunate reasons I've been away for a few days.

Thanks Steveo and all. I am very glad we had this discussion.

May we all have a better year in 2012.

[steveo_1965]

Steve ,
I believe thats exactly what happend, the way you described it..well said!
Rio, Steve, and members of the forum...
Happy Holidays!

[Steve Schenck]

Are there any members of this site who live in the San Diego area? I was wondering what "the buzz" on Gift of the Magi is... Has anyone out that way seen it? Do you hear people on local TV talking about it, or are you reading more in the local papers about it? I'm hoping there will be enough praise for the music expressed that it will manage to get itself recorded. Sondheim has had several failures with shows he's been involved with on Broadway, for any number of reasons; but, if I'm not mistaken, every single one of them has been recorded because the theater and music-loving public recognizes his talent and the value of preserving his creative output. I feel the same about Burt's work.