Bacharach as Composer: Simple or Complex?

[outstretchedarm]

this is more of a musicological musing: most people who understand songwriting consider Bacharach to be a very complex songwriter; by this they mean his melodies, chord changes and key changes.

One doesn't realizes this when one is simply singing along with his/her fave bacharach song; it all just sounds so catchy. But those of you play an instrument will know his stuff is not for the simpleminded.

perfect example: most people can whistle "What the World Needs Now is Love." But when you play it (if I remember correctly) there's a bit of an argument as to whether the song is in D or A. it kinda goes back and forth. i thought I was crazy, till i took it to a musicians forum, and they explained that it was in fact debatable.

I'm currently learning to play "in between the heartaches." When you first play the chords, it doesn't even sound like the song. You have to noodle around with keyboard voicings to make it sound like the recording.

just thinking out loud I guess.

[steveo_1965]

Burt's music is simple to listen to, but complex in construction...
WTWN NOW i feel is in the key of the last chord of the song, before going back to the see-sawing ending. (ev-ry "ONE") ...and I'm almost positive that's how it's notated in his concerts...

Best,
Steveo

[An Enormous BB Fan]

I love this topic. I wish we could delve further into Burt's writing. I don't have the sheet music for "What The World Needs Now" in front of me. But I never knew there was discussion as to what key it's in. But here's what I want to say. I think "Simple" or "Complex" has no relevance to why a song is great. I think some of the greatest songs are simple in structure (simple I, IV, V) and some complex songs are not so great. Rather, I think "catchiness" and "unexpectedness" are more of the qualities of a great song. God knows Burt has both of those qualities in his songs. And they can be simple, too, in structure. In other words, as I see it, any degree of "complexity" is not an issue.

Also, I want to add "tension" and "resolution" as being great qualities in great songs. No one does that better than Burt. But I can't really explain it. Anyone?

Also, Burt's countermelodies. You hear it in his music but you may not even be aware of what's going on. You just know you love it but can't identify it or explain it.

And, of course, Burt's harmonies.

[steveo_1965]

Great post, Enormous..l agree with all you say!

[An Enormous BB Fan]

Okay, I'm still interested in this topic.

Steveo or anyone that wishes to participate: Please list an example of a complex song and simple song -- either Bacharach or non-Bacharach.

I'm going to start off by saying that I think "Christmas Day" [from the musical "Promises, Promises"] is a very complex song. [By the way, is a "hard" song to sing and a "complex" song one and the same? Maybe we should start off by definining the term "complex song".] I think the notes starting with "...everything they taught you when you were a child, etc" can be very hard/complex to sing. I think "Wild Again" [from the "Sometimes Late At Night" album] is also a complex song.

You know what's funny? I think "Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head" is a simple song; yet, Burt, himself, thinks that it's a hard song to sing. So does that mean that it's complex? Can a complex song be easy to sing?

I think Stevie Wonder, out of all the pop composers, writes the most complex songs. Two of my favorites are "That Girl" and "Overjoyed". I consider them both complex. The chord structure to "That Girl" is really astounding for a pop song.

Stephen Sondheim writes complex songs, it seems to me.

[outstretchedarm]

okay I'll get back in this:

a) what is meant by a complex song?

#1: probably the simplest way to define this is chromatism. These are melodic notes that leave the diatonic scale of the song. Many of burt's song lines have notes that "leave" the current scale.

similarly, unexpected changes are usually the result of introducing chords that contain notes not in the diatonic scale the song is currently in.

For example, in the scale of C major, which most of us can "see" well in, a C major is diatonic. So is F major, and so is A minor.

But if you introduce a change with Bb major, it is a chromatic change, because the Bb is a chromatic note, yet it doesnt sound too wild because the other notes of that chord, D and F and diatonic.

But if you introduce a Eb minor chord into this same progression....yeah, it will sound very wild, because all three of that notes chords (Eb, Gb and Bb) are chromatic to the current scale.

So we might say that a "complex" song (perhaps among many other possibilities) is one in which the composer manages to introduce these chromatic elements, either in the melody, or the chords, or in both. In Burt's case, he introduces these elements while still keep the melodies "whistle-able" and catchy, and feeling familiar and warm.

#2 Sometimes by complex we also mean the use of the higher extended chords. Its not uncommon to hear Cdom13th and F9b5 etc in Burt's songs. Even if they are not notated that way, alot of them sound good interpreted that way, because Burt's sound if often jazzy.

Just some thoughts

[An Enormous BB Fan]

Yes, what you say is true and very good for this "conversation." And, in furtherance of what you said, I think a complex song is one where there are uncommon leaps between notes in a song. As a great example of this would be to compare singing "Happy Birthday" with "Take the "A" Train."

I think, as an example of Burt's complexity and genius, I might point to "A House Is Not A Home" where, on the first syllable of "sud-den-ly", when the lyric goes "...suddenly your face appears", the note that "sud-" falls on is the flatted 5th of the underlying chord. In fact, the whole run of notes corresponding to "....sud-den-ly your face appears" is not simple at all. But it's beautiful, too. This is just one example of why Burt is so original, unique and brilliant. You will never find that kind of thing in a "simple" song. And I think it might be hard for an inexperienced singer to hit that note/those notes correctly.

[hereiam]

I love this topic. .... I think some of the greatest songs are simple in structure (simple I, IV, V) and some complex songs are not so great.

And, of course, Burt's harmonies.

Yes, I love this topic too (though I am a layman in music)
I totally agree that some of the great songs are simple.
Two songs by the early Beatles (they were simple before 1966) come to my mind.
One is Lennon's "If I Fell" and the other is McCartney's "I'll Follow the sun"
They are 2 of my top Beatles songs before George Martin helped them to
dress up their compositions (from the Rubber Soul era).
Simple but wonderful. Of course the 3 part harmony of John, Paul and George
adds so much charm to them

[steveo_1965]

I think I may have posted this years ago, but I was told by one of Lawrence WElk's Musicians that Lawrence didn't Like Misty or Raindrops because of the major sevenths in the melodies, which he didn't consider smooth...I think he didn't perform Misty, but more or less was forced to record Raindrops
cause during its heydey, it was big.....real big!
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WEll, you could take mary had a little lamb the first part, that part is accesible, right? and then go to an
unusual note like a tritone, and hang on it for a bit and put an unusual time signature in it......this is what i mean..that Burt's melodies are simple at times, then go somewhere diferent, meterwise, and note wise.....
But listening to them is wonderful!
Steveo